Key Reflections
* Interpol facilitates information sharing throughout its 195 members, allowing each nation to better understand the evolving threat landscape.
* When Interpol was founded, it was acknowledged that organised crime and terrorism transcends borders. As a result, the organisation prioritises border security, ensuring that threats, including returning foreign terrorist fighters, are stopped at their source.
* Another core value that underpins the work of Interpol is capacity building. Whilst the organisation strives for a unified, robust response across the 195 membership, not everyone is equal in their capacities and capabilities, making training, support, coordination, and equipment sharing essential.
* Interpol has 19 different databases; it is important to have a central repository of such information to better coordinate amongst different member states and achieve the most effective and efficient responses.
* Interpol brings member states together with mutual interests so that they can then collaborate and work together to develop appropriate solutions bilaterally or multilaterally when various challenges arise.
* There are currently 71,000 Red Notices, over 7000 of which have been made public, for wanted offenders. The goal is to encourage communities to participate and offer any information they may have on these individuals, and to foster cooperation between relevant members.
Transcript:
SG: Dr. Sajjan Gohel
GH: Greg Hinds
SG: Welcome to the NATO DEEP Dive podcast, I’m your host Dr. Sajjan Gohel and in this episode I speak with Greg Hinds, the Director for Counter-Terrorism at Interpol.
In 2023 Interpol became 100 years old and has 195 members making it one of the largest multilateral organisations in the world. I talk with Greg about Interpol’s ongoing efforts to tackle international terrorism, as well as looking at border security, enhancing capacity building, and the tools Interpol uses to enhance global cooperation.
Gregg Hinds, thank you for joining us on NATO DEEP Dive.
GH: You are welcome, it’s great to be with you, finally.
SG: It’s very good to have you here. So, we’re sitting on the sidelines of a big counter-terrorism conference in the U.S., where we were both speaking. I know how busy you are, so I’m glad to have that opportunity with you. Before we get into the work of Interpol, let’s clear up a rumour. Is it true that the character that The Rock plays in the movie Red Notice is based on you?
GH: Well, I’d like to boast that, yes, The Rock was trying to emulate myself but no, unfortunately not, it was an FBI agent, a rogue FBI agent. And so perhaps we can get an Australian maybe Chris Hemsworth, or even Hugh Jackman, Wolverine and Thor characters, or even Margot Robbie, out of Suicide Squad, it might be good to have a little Aussie infusion into our next Red Notice series.
SG: Okay, I think these are very good suggestions, absolutely.
So, you’re the director of counter-terrorism for Interpol. Can you talk about Interpol’s evolving role when it comes to counter-terrorism?
GH: Thanks, great question. As its director, it’s been really important for us to actually really set a strategy and purpose for the work that we do. And Interpol has just launched its global CT strategy at the end of 2022. And that three-to-four-year agenda is really trying to make sure that our mandate, which is around supporting member countries, which is 195 member countries of Interpol, supporting them with the evolving and complex nature of terrorism. And we wanted to do that through international police cooperation. And through that, we’ve got four objectives and we see this as really trying to keep it simple, in a very complex and evolving CT threat landscape.
One is around information exchange. So, making sure that we are sharing information across the 195 member countries, to ensure that the pieces of the crime puzzle are more likely to come together. Secondly, we want to actually build a better threat picture, by understanding the threat and the evolving nature of that landscape, we are then better placed to actually work with the membership in the preventative space. And then if something does happen, how do we actually support them with other activities. Thirdly, we want to make sure that we provide the technical expertise where we can, in supporting our memberships and making sure that we’re drawing on expertise either within and across Interpol, or through our partner agencies and making sure that we’re providing, if you’d like, a unified response to where the weaknesses or vulnerabilities might be. And then lastly, we also want to be a global voice for law enforcement. We’re involved in many fora, and we want to make sure that we are absolutely representing the interests, the needs, and the priorities of our membership, with partners and stakeholders in this regard.
SG: You’ve raised a lot of important aspects of what counter-terrorism entails when it comes to Interpol and I’d like to break some of that down, because it’s so significant what you’re saying. Let’s talk about, for example, border management, it’s a massive issue around the world. How does Interpol help, especially when it comes to counter-terrorism?
GH: Once again, this is really the nature of why Interpol was set up. So, Sajjan, we’re actually commemorating, celebrating, Interpol’s 100 years this year. And back in 1923, it was recognised by 20 member countries that crime and terrorism transcends borders. And so, who was going to be best placed to actually look to bring and connect the dots of criminality that actually transcends these borders. And so, Interpol was established.
And so, the forward thinking of the membership was looking at the very transnational nature of serious organised crime and terrorism. And so, one of those is border security. And then with border security, I think certainly through a CT lens, we look at this through both the physical and the virtual lens, we want to make sure that we’re working with our membership and stopping threats at its source. So, whether it’s foreign terrorist fighters, whether it’s the enabling support that comes with them, whether it’s financing, whether it’s the weapons and munitions, we want to make sure that they are stopped at their source. And so, if it’s not, we want to make sure that we’ve got border security that is robust attendee and once you get that information sharing that on that as the trigger alerts will be played when either GS commodity is moving across the border. When a foreign terrorist fighter or their neighbours are moving across the border, we want to put the information in the hands of decision makers, those frontline officers who can make informed decisions about the responses they can make. That’s through a CT lens.
We also have broader impacts in relation to border security through our integrated border management taskforce that’s led by Interpol. We’re also a vice chair, in the UN’s Global Compact Working Groups, for law enforcement and border security as well. So, we’re wanting to make sure that we’re, once again, networking our networks and working holistically across the issue with our UN partners, but also with our 195 membership. In doing this, we focus on strengthening national and regional arrangements and we hope that that’s having an impact globally as well.
SG: So, I assume capacity building is a very important part of this, especially as you were mentioning how Interpol has grown and expanded.
GH: So, capacity building really underpins a lot of the work that we look to do as well. We want to make sure that, once again, we have got a unified, robust response across the 195 membership, and not everyone is equal in their capacities and capabilities. So, working through our foreign policy interests, so trying to match foreign policy agendas with law enforcement priorities and actions, that’s one of my challenges and it’s one of the areas that I really look to focus on: being a bridge between the policy conversations and operational action. And this is where we wanted to make sure that we focus on better understanding what those capacity and capability gaps might be, and then working with those in building a plan, in trying to build at the individual, and also at the institutional levels, areas of work that need to focus on building capacities and capabilities, whether that be through training; whether that be through operational support and coordination; whether that be through gifting of equipment; whether it’s actually training; or whether it’s even mentoring and supporting cases that are actually active as well. There’s a way and means in which we tailor, depending on the kind of priorities and the country’s needs and requirements, in the type of support that we provide. So, wanting to make sure that we have a bespoke approach to supporting our membership in that regard.
SG: I want to move to criminal intelligence analysis, because this is a key part of what Interpol also does. Can you expand on what that actually entails?
GH: Yeah, so Interpol has a large set of databases. But we want to make sure that we’re also providing data analysis. And as I said, from the outset, we’re looking to make sure that there is an information exchange, sharing of that information and of course, the role of Interpol is actually trying to make sure that we are bridging and joining those dots and gaps. And so, there’s a lot of analysis that goes in behind that information that actually goes into our systems to support either requests for information that are coming in, in relation to particular individuals or particular groups, or modus operandi of particular terrorists.
And then secondly, we’re also looking at ways and means of trying to actually provide a much more operational support posture in this space as well. So, it is really important for us, because we know intelligence will drive our investigations. And of course, by understanding the threat, we’re hopefully better placed to provide the necessary support that we need for our members.
SG: These aspects that we’re talking about, are they related to the databases that Interpol has and develops, and then how does that get utilised?
GH: So, Interpol has 19 different databases, and that the information that’s shared is growing on a daily basis. So once again, because of that information exchange, that data is enriched on a daily basis. So, it’s really important for us to be making sure that we’re also keeping across the information that’s coming in. And so, the analysis of that is really, really important, as I said, in better understanding the threat, but also looking at ways and means which we can better support the priorities, needs, and requirements of our membership. And some of the databases include nominal information, so that’s persons information, stolen and lost travel documents, stolen motor vehicles. We’ve also got those that sit across a forensic space as well and biometrics across DNA, across fingerprints, across facial imagery as well.
Out of that, there’s 125 million records in Interpol’s 19 databases. And what happens is we have 16 million checks per day of our systems, and that results in approximately 4000 hits against those databases as well. So once again, this is the importance of having that centralised repository of information across different data sets and looking to use that in a federated manner and trying to make sure, once again, the decision-making at frontlines can be made in relation to when there’s been triggers or alerts that have been actioned or activated at border crossing points and other investigations as an operational activity.
SG: Well, the level of information that gets processed for those databases is phenomenal. Every time we talk about law enforcement and counter-terrorism, forensics and biometrics keep coming up, and they seem to be very essential as assisting the role of law enforcement for prosecuting. Could you provide also some more perspective on how important forensics and biometrics have become?
GH: One of our three B’s approaches is biometrics, and you’re right, Sajjan, it’s really, really important for us to make sure the biometrics element is spot on. We’ve got minimum standards in relation to what’s good practice in relation to what happens across fingerprint collection, facial collection, and even DNA.
So, it’s really important we get this right, and it’s really important that this information is then flagged against the warnings and alerts and notifications, because this is where we don’t want to be having false positives. 60 million checks a day, 4000 hits, we want to make sure that we are actually having impact and effect in countering serious and organised crime and terrorism across the globe.
SG: Absolutely. I was asked this question to ask you, actually, so tell me about fugitive investigative support—what does that mean?
GH: I mean, it sounds sexy, doesn’t it? It sounds a little bit like Red Notice, that we are actually out there hunting down these individuals, and I’d love to say that I do it on a daily basis. But what this actually means is that with this information that comes into our systems, we have a team that actually supports trying to track these individuals as well. And when there have been hits, that we’re making sure that the countries that actually have a vested interest in this are connected and joined up so that they can start making informed decisions about them. So, I’ll give you an example: so even just as late as yesterday…our fugitive support is looking at two member countries that were interested in an individual that actually had been involved in drug trafficking. The day before that, there was an individual that was actually wanted for murder. So part of our fugitive support to our membership is actually making sure that when there is a trigger or alert that occurs against our systems, that we are connecting the relevant police forces, and then bilaterally or multilaterally, they can start looking at the ways and means in which they need to progress that investigative or operational effort. So that really is important for us, and we see almost on a daily basis Interpol is actually bringing member countries together on matters of mutual interest.
SG: Let’s conclude on kind of what we started on—the term “Red Notice.” We’ve spoken about it, it comes up a lot, it’s always associated with Interpol, but I don’t think necessarily everyone fully understands what that entails. And if I’m not wrong, there are other colours as well, right?
GH: There is a number of colours, yes. So just with Red Notices, it’s a really important tool for us, and it probably is one of the best things that Interpol is known for. And basically, a Red Notice is information that’s communicated about a wanted individual that is sought by a particular member country for a particular specific crime type, where there are extradition proceedings that underpin that as well. So, this is actually where the seriousness of the crime warrants basically an international arrest warrant, if you like, for a better term, in relation to the Red Notice. And upon activation, that allows the member country where the individual has been detected to then liaise with the country, and Interpol’s role is actually making sure that we have those connects that where there has been a trigger of these alerts…that we’re working with the member countries involved in relation to bringing these people to justice. And so, the Red Notice is a really important tool in doing that.
And just to give you an example, we’ve got over 71,000 valid Red Notices out there. And almost on a daily, weekly basis, I see Red Notices have been triggered, where it’s actually been a connect putting member countries together and resolving, you know, criminals that have been trying to move around the globe and trying to actually move around undetected or avoid responsibilities for the crimes that they’ve allegedly committed. Now, importantly, of that 71,000 Red Notices, over 7000 of those have also been made public. So, this is where law enforcement has decided that with the nature and extent of these particular crimes, they wanted the public to also get involved, as we typically do, at a national level, looking to involve our communities as part of the crime-solving process as well. And so almost 10% of our Red Notices have been made public to have the communities also support us in identifying those wanted offenders.
SG: This has all been very fascinating, getting the whole perspective about Interpol. I know I said that we’d conclude with Red Notice, but just a definite last question: is there an example of a case or an investigation that you would say typifies how Interpol works to the best of its ability, something that you’ve experienced whilst you’ve been there?
GH: Yeah, great question. I think every day we see where Interpol has been able to actually bring member countries together. And obviously going back to the tenets of why we exist is around how do we actually help membership be able to connect crime that transcends national borders? For me, I think from a CT perspective, what I’ve seen here is where our Project Watchmaker, which was around bomb-makers and bomb-making material, that a fingerprint that has been passed as part of our Watchmaker process, on a device that was found in a conflict zone, has actually been processed and put into the system and alerts been made. And individuals that have been travelling from second or third countries have been interdicted and been identified at border crossing points, linked back to a particular device that was used in a conflict zone that was part of a terrorist attack. And then being able to bring three or four member countries together, who actually had an interest in this particular activity. And this is what we see every day—bringing those pieces of that crime puzzle together, crime and the movement of people and goods, injurious products over borders. This is what we do really well, and as I said, it really underpins the mandate of connecting police for a safer world.
SG: Connecting the police for a safer world. Well, I think it’s a very appropriate way to end this. Well, good luck in keeping us all safe. And thank you once again, Greg Hines, for joining us on NATO DEEP Dive.
GH: It’s been my pleasure. Thanks very much.
SG: Thank you for listening to this episode of NATO DEEP Dive, brought to you by NATO’s Defence Education Enhancement Programme (DEEP). My producers are Marcus Andreopoulos and Victoria Jones. For additional content, including full transcripts of each episode, please visit: deepportal.hq.nato.int/deepdive.
Disclaimer: Please note that the views, information, or opinions expressed in the NATO DEEP Dive series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of NATO or DEEP.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.